TRUDY MCINTOSH, HOST: Joining me now is the Assistant Minister for the Future Made in Australia, Tim Ayres. Tim, thanks for joining us in this Christmas week, do you think it's really fair that voters are going to be in the dark?

SENATOR AYRES: Well, the Government will set the target in the normal way following the report and the analysis that will be done by the Climate Change Authority. That is normal, and that means an analysis of what's occurring in the international environment. It's our job as the Government to set targets that achieve the objectives in terms of our international competitiveness, in terms of making sure that we're putting Australian manufacturing in the box seat for investment, that we're dragging in the right kind of investment into low cost and reliable energy in our energy market. That is the purpose of setting the targets. It's not a window dressing exercise. It is a deep policy exercise that is relevant for future costs for households and business, and we won't be rushing into it.

HOST: But a cynic might look at this and say, well, how convenient. All of a sudden, with an election around the horizon, Matt Kean, in charge of the CCA, decides he needs more time and that means we won't have to come to what could be a potentially politically difficult decision for Labour ahead of the next election.

AYRES: Well, you'd have to be pretty cynical. It's the right thing to do in the national interest, to do this in a measured kind of way, because that's how we put Australian manufacturers in the strongest possible position. That's how we ensure that household bills, that we're providing low cost and reliable energy. It's a big contrast to Peter Dutton's approach, which is to announce a $600 billion nuclear programme without any of the costings being properly done.

Can he assure Australian households that their bills will be lower when he puts the most expensive form of power into the system? What's his message for the one in three Australian households who have solar on their roofs? What's his message to them about how he will compensate them for income losses and increased bills that they will experience? What's his message about how he has gone about the business of ensuring that he's properly factored in the cost of compulsorily acquiring seven coal fired power stations, the sites of those power stations. What's his message about the manufacturing plans that have been put in place by those businesses? In Liddell, of course there is a solar manufacturing facility going in there that will employ more people than the Liddell power station ever employed. What's his message for them?

I mean the list goes on Trudy of uncertainty, additional cost, $1,200 per household per year. He's got no answer on, you know, all of these nuclear power stat built in the western world have all run tens of billions of dollars over cost have all run more than 10 years over schedule. He's got no answer about what happens when our coal fired power stations stop functioning and there is an energy supply gap, what that means in national security and cost terms for households and for business. He's got no answers on these questions. He's focused instead on the political fix. I mean the idea that this guy who can't deliver a reshuffle on time, you know, he keeps promising that the reshuffle coming around the corner, basic test for any leader can't deliver it kicked it off to next year and the. Never, never the idea that this bloke could deliver the much.

HOST: But Tim, do you think you risk getting a little success with the other side? You're the point person it seems to me, at the moment, criticising Peter Dutton's nuclear policy. Is there a risk that as a government you look a little too obsessed with what they're doing? Isn't it going to be more effective for you guys to outline why your approach is better rather than simply, you know, nitpicking on a reshuffle? Did most Australians even realise they were about to have one on the other side?

AYRES: Well, well, it's a basic test of leadership. It's a basic test of whether or not this bloke is focused on the national interest and the interests of ordinary Australian households. I mean you asked me a question. Our plans in terms of 2035 targets. I've answered it and contrasted it with the absolute chamozzle on the Coalition side here. That will mean increased costs for Australian households $1200 per year. We are getting on with the job in Government.

Let's focus on $1,200. What that means in terms of costs for ordinary households is 300 or $400 at the end of every quarter in additional bills and people will have to find that 300 or $400 extra. At the end of every quarter, $1,200 a year. This month, just this month, we have knocked $1,200 on average off the HECS bill of 3 million Australians who have a HECS debt. Nurses, teachers, you know, people who've done professional qualifications now have $1,200 on average off their HECS bill. He wants to put.

HOST: But, Tim, when they look at their power bill, they promised that it would go down. That's the contrast in the mess of an Australian person who's looking at politics and don't look at it in the specifics detail the promise of $275. I know the Government doesn't want to concede it, but bills have gone up, not down, even under the renewables plan.

AYRES: It's my job, and it's your job too, Trudy, to focus on the facts on these things and you know and I know and everybody who's been engaged in this knows that there's been a war in Ukraine that, that has had a significant knock on effect on energy prices in a sustained way around the world and it's fed into inflation, too.

There's also been, I think, the impact of 10 years of complete policy inertia. The old Morrison show meant that no electricity generation or transmission fundamentally was built. The only project that started under their government was Snowy 2.0. Now, Snowy 2.0 is a hole in the ground and a tunnel and some turbines. It is a massive undertaking, but in engineering terms, it's not the same as a nuclear power station. It started as a $2 billion project when these guys did the same sort of costings exercise that they've done this time, like a short, sharp political exercise. $2 billion. It started. Now it's $12 billion and it's half a decade late. Half a decade late.

HOST: Tim Ayres, thank you so much. I've got to leave it there. I really appreciate you coming on in this Christmas week.

AYRES: Merry Christmas to you when you viewers.

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