GREG JENNETT, HOST: Okay, so we now have joining us live, Assistant Minister, Tim Ayres. He was a long-time union official for the Manufacturing Workers Union before he entered Parliament as an NSW senator. And it's with that familiarity that he also sits on the ALP's National Executive, which made that decision today to cut off the construction union. Tim Ayres does join us live. Welcome back to the program, Tim.

SENATOR TIM AYRES, ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR TRADE AND MANUFACTURING: G'day, Greg. Very good to be on the show.

JENNETT: Thank you, I believe you're in transit, which is why we find you in Moree today. But look, this suspension, it applies to New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia and Tasmania. Why not elsewhere? And especially why not Queensland? Did you deliberate on that?

AYRES: Well, we've seen very clearly, requests from Premiers in those states, based on the reporting, the behaviour and the alleged behaviour of the CFMEU construction division in those states. So, founded on that, requests for the National Executive to act, and that is what the National Executive has done. Of course, this component of the action that is being taken by the Labor Party is the organisational wings action, disaffiliation, suspension of affiliation of the CFMEU construction division. It's in tandem with, of course, the tough action taken by the Federal Government, led by Minister Tony Burke, to impose intervention and administration on the CFMEU construction division itself.

JENNETT: Yeah, I understand that. And we might get to some questions about that process. On the decision taken today by the ALP, though, what criteria will have to be met for suspension to come to an end?

AYRES: Well, I heard Sally McManus' interview, the portion of it that you played this morning. I have to say that I think those sentiments are right. What we want to see in the Labor Party is consistent, of course, with what people in the community would expect. That is a union that has the right governance that can demonstrate a track record of compliance with proper standards of governance. I don't want to see bikies on building sites in positions of authority. Let's cross that bridge when we come to it. But this is this process that Tony Burke, the Workplace Relations Minister, has embarked on is the hard road, not the easy road.

JENNETT: Yes -

AYRES: It's about reforming this institution and making the construction industry better. It is going to take time and concentrated effort, and that's what Tony outlined yesterday. And no doubt if the ALP National Executive considers these issues in the future, it will be considering them in light of the progress that's been made against the very high benchmark that Tony Burke set yesterday.

JENNETT: All right, yes. So, Sally McManus indicated in the piece we just played that it might take years for re-admittance there at the CFMEU, just very briefly, because I have other questions. But what’s the timeline you're working on or assuming at this stage?

AYRES: Greg it will take as long as it takes. The outcome is what matters here. The outcome is what matters, and it will take as long as it takes. I heard what Sally said, and I don't disagree with her.

JENNETT: All right, so there'll be an administration process that'll - or is meant to - clean the union up, and then at some point after that work is done, there would be internal elections within the CFMEU construction division. How do we know that a shonky leadership wouldn't replicate itself through that democratic process?

AYRES: Well, these are all going to be questions for the administrator, Greg. There's a really important separation here. The Fair Work Ombudsman directing the work of an administration, taking full control of those branches of the CFMEU construction division. That will be detailed work. It will involve all sorts of arms of activity and they will need to be satisfied that those kinds of activities can proceed. I don't know the answer to when is that likely to occur. That will depend upon my assessment. Based on what I heard Tony Burke say yesterday, it will be based upon performance and demonstrated change. Workers in the construction industry deserve a union that is well governed, that acts in their interests and their interests alone, and that makes a positive contribution. That's a long way away from what we've seen over the course of the last five or six days in these revelations and the government's standing up for the right position here. I've heard Peter Dutton and Michaelia Cash all calling for headline grabbing -

JENNETT: Deregistration and the like? Yeah, we heard the Prime Minister address that earlier.

AYRES: Yeah. And this is it - substance, Greg, substance. Like actually going after the thing that is going to fix the problem. Even though it's a harder road and a longer road, it's the right thing to do for construction workers, the construction industry, and frankly, it's what Australians would expect.

JENNETT: All right, there'll be a lot of scar tissue left by the revelations of this week. Do you ever see the construction division willingly, in the future, donating and making financial contributions to the ALP again? And I ask that question in light of comments that have been made by the Northern Territory and Queensland divisional leader, Mr Ravbar of that union. Fairly harsh criticism, I'm sure you'll be aware of it.

AYRES: Yeah, I'm not interested in it, Greg, frankly. What's the job here? The job is reforming this union and returning proper governance to the union and to the industry. Having a fair dinkum union that acts in the interests of the workers who join that union. It's in the interests of workers and the construction industry for there to be strong unionism, broad membership, strong cooperation, making building sites safer, more productive and lifting wages. That's what the government wants to see. What unions do -

JENNETT: It's also been in the ALP's interest, though, hasn't it? With millions of dollars, with campaigning personnel who would take to letterbox dropping and campaigning generally on the streets. You're going to have to go without that for some time. At what cost?

AYRES: I couldn't be less interested in this, Greg. I don't want to be offensive about it. The job here is the job that I've outlined. Reforming this, administering this properly. That's what Tony Burke's outlined. He's made it very clear that's not motivating our approach here. And we have been very clear, very direct and very focused on the public interest and the interest of construction workers. And that's the way that we'll continue to approach this over the months and years ahead.

JENNETT: Do you anticipate that legislative action will be required to make administration happen? I don't know if you've had any feedback from the CFMEU as part of the National Executive meeting today, but this is the fork in the road that Tony Burke finds himself at. How do you think it plays to go into administration?

AYRES: Well, I don't want to offer any commentary on this because I have no knowledge of what is going to happen over the course of the next few weeks, only that Tony Burke, the Workplace Relations Minister, and the Prime Minister have been very clear on this. Whatever action is required to deliver the right result is what the government will do. Tony outlined yesterday that if that requires a legislative response, then that's what will happen. The FWO has very strong powers here. It's the right body charged with this to deliver this result. Let's support them in their work over the coming weeks and then we'll see where we are. But we'll do as a government whatever's required.

JENNETT: Ok, one final process question, and it's a real sort of insider question, I will acknowledge. The status of Zach Smith, the national secretary of the CFMEU. He does happen to be on the National Executive. Did he participate today or what is his status as part of your National Executive whilst under suspension?

AYRES: Well, as you know, Greg, I'm reluctant to comment on these, as you say, insider questions, but I think it's fair, it's a fair enough question, and he did absent himself, and I think that was the proper thing to do from the deliberations today. That's the right thing to do and -

JENNET: And that upholds into the future?

AYRES: Well, the decision is in relation to the role of the CFMEU construction division in those states. But certainly Mr Smith, Zach Smith absented himself today on the basis that the Executive was dealing with the question of that union's future affiliation. He's an official of that union, so that's a proper, I think, a proper thing to do.

JENNETT: Look, thanks for clearing that up, Tim Ayres, and for a road stop on your journey. You know, we always like having you on and appreciate that.

AYRES: Can I just say, Greg, it's really good to be in North-West NSW talking to local government, to renewable energy companies, to manufacturers about the Future Made in Australia agenda. It's so good to be out of Canberra.

JENNETT: I can believe it.

AYRES: Out of the partisan politics and talking to people across the spectrum about rebuilding Australian manufacturing. It's a real delight to be here.

JENNETT: I can believe that. And you might be surprised to learn I did have a bunch of questions about Future Made in Australia in light of Andrew Forrest and some decisions that his company has made. But we're going to put those on hold for another time, Tim Ayres, because we know you're a friend of the program, and you'll be back for more at another time. Enjoy.

AYRES: I'll be back whenever you ask, Greg. Good to speak to you. 

ENDS.