Subjects: CSIRO job cuts, Government funding for research, and the restructuring of CSIRO.

ROSS SOLLY: So yesterday, and in fact the day before, we started talking about the potential for 350 jobs to be lost from the CSIRO. They're finding it very, very hard to make ends meet on their current budget, and unfortunately, they're going to have to restructure, reprioritise, and that will mean jobs are going to go at some stage.

The Minister is Tim Ayres, and he joins us on the program this morning. Tim Ayres, good morning to you.

 

SENATOR TIM AYRES, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND INNOVATION AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE: G'day, Ross, good to be on the show.

 

HOST: Yeah, thanks for joining us. Look, we're five weeks away from Christmas, and there are going to be up to 350 people who are going to lose their jobs on the eve of Christmas, basically because the funding from your government for the CSIRO has failed to keep pace with the cost of the CSIRO doing their job every day.

 

AYRES: Well, that second part of your question is not correct. The first part is right. The CSIRO is going through this process now of making sure that all of its research is consistent with the National Science Priorities, and with their strategic vision for how the future of this really important national science institution, that it's set up for the decades ahead.

 

And that is what I think Australians would expect, that scientific work in our applied science and industrial research organisation is directed towards areas of absolute national priority, like climate adaptation or in some of these areas of human health –

 

HOST: Yeah, I think you're right.

 

AYRES: and diseases. So, to speak to the second part of your question, right, which is about the level of funding.

 

HOST: M'hmm.

 

AYRES: I'm very happy to answer questions about that.

 

HOST: Yeah, please do.

 

AYRES: This set of decisions is about making sure that everything that the organisation does is directed towards those priorities. That's what –

 

HOST: You're – I think you're right. I think you're right, Minister.

 

AYRES: – organisations –  

 

HOST: Yes, of course, Australians want that, and I think Australians generally are very, very proud of the CSIRO and the work they've done, and I think you're right; they would hope that the CSIRO is focusing their priorities in those important areas. I think what you might also, though, is that a lot of Australians would be hoping that the CSIRO, as our premier scientific organisation, has enough funding to be able to do all the work it's doing and not need to cut the job of scientists who have worked very, very hard in areas which are very important.

 

AYRES: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm trying to be careful, of course, in terms of the way that I talk about these areas of priority, because the people who work in the areas that will be no longer done, right.

So, they have been doing work, they are passionate, committed scientists, and researchers and also, you know, previously last year, the staff who support their work. Like these are terrific Australians who make a great contribution, and a shift in the product CSIRO delivers in order to make sure that every public dollar in science is being directed towards the National Science Priorities, that is not a reflection on the work that they have done.

In areas like nutrition, the CSIRO Total Wellbeing Diet, you know, all of those products that have been delivered for Australians, this is really important –  

 

HOST: But is it not –  

 

AYRES: Every program comes to an end, though and –  

 

HOST: Is it not an issue any more? Do you feel it's not an issue now for Australians, diet, nutrition, this sort of stuff? Is it not important any more?

 

AYRES: Of course, it is, and in some of these areas, the CSIRO will do more targeted research. In some of these areas, the CSIRO will not continue to do work in a particular focus area and will shift on to something else, right. So that's what people would expect. Not every line of inquiry goes forever, but –  

 

HOST: So they're trying to spread their funding too thin, are they?

 

AYRES: They are working –  

 

HOST: Are they trying to spread their money too thin, do you think?

 

AYRES: Let me come to the overall funding questions.

 

HOST: Yeah, please do.

 

AYRES: The government provides the CSIRO with a very significant funding envelope, a billion dollars a year. They do have other lines of income, of course, that they generate themselves. This government has provided additional funding on top of that for the CSIRO to make sure, and as I've said, these decisions are not about the core funding or the level of funding –  

 

HOST: But Tim Ayres –  

 

AYRES: – they are about priority.

 

HOST: Okay, but Tim Ayres –  

 

AYRES: And even if we – just go through the thought experiment. If we doubled the funding, or tripled it, people would still have a legitimate expectation CSIRO would manage its resources in a way that was directed towards the National Science Priorities.

 

HOST: I guess, I guess –  

 

AYRES: These are separate issues.  

 

HOST: I guess what people are concerned about is that, in real terms, and the boss of the CSIRO conceded this yesterday, in real terms, funding has gone backwards under your government. The Parliamentary Library has suggested that if you crunch the numbers there that there's been a reduction in the funding of the CSIRO by 7 per cent since Labor took Office, Tim Ayres. So, I mean, are you a true believer in what the CSIRO does, or are you just happy to sort of cut, chip away, take away a bit of the funding and hope for the best?

 

AYRES: Well, we're absolutely committed to the organisation.

 

HOST: So why reduce the funding in real terms?

 

AYRES: Nominal funding has stayed the same, a billion dollars.

 

HOST: But in real terms. We're talking about the cost – because what they said yesterday, what the CSIRO said yesterday, is that "We haven't been able to keep pace with the cost of doing what we do anymore" because, you know, every year it goes up. The cost of living goes up, the cost of running the CSIRO goes up, and your funding hasn't been able to keep pace with that.

 

AYRES: And the government has provided additional funding on top of that in order to secure jobs and capability. Now there's a MYEFO process and a budget process coming up. They will make decisions in the normal way. We will deal with those core sustainment questions in an orderly kind of way, and that is the process that we will follow. There are challenges for the CSIRO at the moment. And the CEO has been absolutely open about that, and I'm absolutely open about that too. 47 facilities around the country with escalating costs around those facilities, 800 scientific buildings.

It is a challenge for the CSIRO to manage these issues. They are doing a good job of managing those issues. They are working hard to make sure that there is a CSIRO that is fit for purpose and modern, and aggressive in pursuing the kind of objectives in areas like climate adaptation that we must have this organisation focused directly upon because that is in our national interest. So, I'm convinced that the board is grappling with these issues in the right way, and that doesn’t mean though that a decision to change programs and reprioritise research is ‑ of course it's painful. Of course it is.

 

 HOST: So, you've mentioned there, Tim Ayres, the mid-year budget. There's a report in the Canberra Times today that there could be some more money coming to the CSIRO, especially for areas like maintenance, which is sapping a lot of their budget at the moment. Can you confirm that? Is that likely?

 

AYRES: Well, as I've said, we'll make decisions consistent with the approach that this government has taken to make sure that we're maintaining those important science capabilities, but they'll be announced in the normal way.

Right now, the focus is upon this exercise of making sure that everything that the CSIRO does is lined up with those National Science Priorities. They've gone through an exhaustive process internally to work with staff about that. They're consulting with staff this week, so, you know, I'm reluctant to comment on individual areas too closely. I want to let the staff and the union, and the management work those issues through in a careful way.

But yes, we'll make decisions in the context of the mid-year economic forecast, but also in budget. Because those core issues of sustainment have not been dealt with in a structural kind of way for 25 years.

Now, we are working our way through those –

 

HOST: So, is that a reflection on the management of the CSIRO, or is it more that the government's been asleep at the wheel?

 

AYRES: We all bear responsibility for making decisions here in the national interest. Finger-pointing is not helpful. What I can say is as the Minister for Science, absolutely committed to the strong effective national science institution, that means working with the board and the management, the staff, the union, the CPSU, that represents research staff and scientists at that organisation, we've all got to work together to make sure that we're building the strongest possible CSIRO for the future. We'll keep doing that.

 

HOST: 24 past 7, Tim Ayres is my guest. He’s the Federal Minister for Industry and Innovation. As the Minister for Science, Tim Ayres, there's going to be more jobs cut at the CSIRO under your watch than there was under Tony Abbott, and Tony Abbott was a Prime Minister who bravely boasted that he didn't believe in science.

 

AYRES: Yeah, well, Tony Abbott cut core funding for the CSIRO. More than $110 million in one budget went out of the CSIRO. What you've seen is this government putting additional resources into the CSIRO.

 

HOST: Yeah, but more jobs went – are going now than under Tony Abbott, and at that time I can remember that the Labor Party were absolutely ropeable, they were saying, you know, this is a reflection of a government that doesn't believe in science and doesn't value science. But now there's more jobs going under your watch.

 

AYRES: Well, those cuts, those cuts in 2014 set the scene for a decade of going backwards in science –

 

HOST: But now you're adding to it.

 

AYRES: Well, what is additional funding for the CSIRO to make sure that capabilities are maintained, and as I've said, we're going to work this in a deliberate and programmatic way. The board and the management, we have expectations for them that they build an approach that secures the future of the organisation and keeps the focus on the capability that Australia needs.

In areas like climate adaptation or zoonotic diseases, what I want to see and what Australians will want to see is increased focus from the CSIRO on these questions. That's what this approach builds. We will make decisions over the coming months that support core sustainment, deal with these challenges in a careful and thoughtful way in the Australian national interest.

You've got a government that supports the science community, that backs in our national institution, that has provided additional funding for the organisation. The contrast couldn't be clearer than with a government that talked science down, that mocked scientists. The claim that climate science wasn't real, I think Tony Abbott said it was a load of crap. We're standing with the science community, including when there's tough decisions to be made.

 

HOST: They don't feel like you are, though, Tim Ayres. They don't feel like they are. The scientists there are very distressed that all of a sudden, there's jobs going to be going, that they've been told now that the work they were doing is no longer prioritised. They don't feel like you're standing with them. They don't feel like you're a true believer in the science and that you value the CSIRO. And again, I put it to you that the figures in real terms have gone backwards, the jobs are going to be going. You can understand why they're feeling that you're letting them down.

 

AYRES: Yeah, well, we're there on the tough days as well as the good days, Ross. These are always tough decisions when there is a change to priorities or a shift in programs. Of course it is.

That is the same as what happens in a university or a large organisation that has a scientific research and development capability. Changes are made. Of course, that is difficult. Of course, that's challenging. I won't go missing on the tough days. I'm there for those, working with the CSIRO, talking with you on your program. We'll continue to do that.

But Australians can be confident that the approach that this government will take will be to support science and to make sure that right across our scientific and research and development system, including the CSIRO, we are building national capability that is directed towards those most urgent of national purposes. We will continue to do that. And this is a step along the way. There is much work to do here and I and the CSIRO and the broader research and development system have got a bundle of work to do. We absolutely respect those scientists and researchers and the staff who support them, don't forget them, the people who work in the – what people say is the back office.

 

HOST: Indeed.

 

AYRES: We don't want to diminish the role that those people play. Their trade union, the CPSU, that will make the case for them publicly. That's a good thing. I want to see more interest in Australian science and not less.

 

HOST: Tim Ayres, really appreciate your time this morning, thank you.

 

AYRES: Thanks, Ross.

 

HOST: That's Tim Ayres who's the Federal Minister for Industry and Innovation, on ABC Canberra Breakfast.

 

ENDS.