TOM LOWREY, HOST: To tease out this Medicare debate or non-debate, as well as the other big issues of the day, I spoke to one of our regular political panels, Shadow Finance Minister Jane Hume and Assistant Trade Minister Tim Ayres, a little earlier. Tim Ayres, thanks for joining me.

SENATOR TIM AYRES, ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR A FUTURE MADE IN AUSTRALIA AND TRADE G'day. Good to be on the show.

HOST: Jane Hume, thanks for being here.

SENATOR JANE HUME, SHADOW FINANCE MINISTER: Great to be here.

HOST: Jane, I'll come to you first just on this Medicare announcement we saw over the weekend. Why has the Coalition backed this policy in and are you comfortable seeing another $8.5 billion in spending?

SENATOR HUME: Well, for the last two and a half years, the Coalition have been adamant that bulk billing has been in rapid decline under Labor. And we've been asking the government over and over again what it is that they're going to do about it. Now it's taken two and a half years. The government have finally come out with an investment in Medicare in order to support bulk billing, to get it back to the levels that it was under a Coalition government. We'll be supporting that because we want to see Medicare supported, we want to see Australians to be able to go, able to go to the doctor and access, which they haven't been able to do. In fact, there's now 40 million fewer bulk billing appointments available to Australians than there were under the Coalition. And there's been a 47% decline in the number of bulk billing appointments.

HOST: So, you agree with the government? This is the answer. Tripling the bulk billing incentive for all Australian adults is going to not solve bulk billing, but substantially improve the situation in Australia.

SENATOR HUME: Well, actually, we want to go further. We've said that we'd like to see a Medicare fund. Mental health appointments doubled as well. We mentioned that in the first budget in reply because we could see that that was something that the government had cut. We think it's really important for preventative health measures that Australians can access mental health appointments that are Medicare funded.

HOST: Did this decision go to Shadow Cabinet?

SENATOR HUME: This decision was made by the Coalition in its normal processes.

HOST: Is this all about avoiding a fight on health before the election? Is the Coalition concerned health is something strong for Labor?

SENATOR HUME: The Coalition have said from the beginning that our priorities are going to be lowering inflation, making sure that there's affordable housing, cheaper energy, safer communities and quality healthcare. That's five things we've been repeating for a considerable period of time, so this shouldn't be a surprise.

HOST: Tim Ayres, are you disappointed Labor is missing out on a fight over health with the Coalition?

SENATOR AYRES: No, I think. I think this is. Firstly, it's very good policy. It's going to make a substantial difference, and I understand for political reasons, the Coalition's announced that they are matching Labor's Medicare commitment that is scarcely credible. Imagine an alternative future with Peter Dutton as the Prime Minister. It would be like putting Peter Dutton in charge of Medicare would be like appointing an arsonist as the fire brigade commissioner. If the Coalition believed in this kind of reform, they could have done it last time they were in government, just a few years ago. But instead, what happened was six years rebate freeze, 50 billion dollars’ worth of cuts to public hospitals. They created the crisis that Labor is solving in government.

HOST: You've also had three years here. I mean, you know, it's taken to your second term, effectively, should you be re-elected to do this.

SENATOR AYRES: Yeah. And what we've seen is bulk billing rates starting to go up. But this reform is critical to rebuild the future of Medicare. And I think Australians know, based on the Coalition's record, not just what they say, but what they have done in government, that the Coalition can't be trusted on Medicare. They don't actually really believe it's the right approach for absolutely political reasons they will say one thing before an election and do completely the opposite after. That's what they did in 2013 through to 2014. They said no cuts to Medicare. And then Peter Dutton as Health Minister absolutely trashed Medicare as a system. Cut the system, tried to impose a GP tax that would have made every single Medicare consultation, every single medical consultation, more expensive.

SENATOR HUME: Tim you know that Peter Dutton, when Peter Dutton was Health Minister, bulk billing rates were up at 84%. They then went up to 88%. They're now back down to 77% under Anthony Albanese.

SENATOR AYRES: This is the same old story. Peter Dutton inherited the Rudd and Gillard government's policy settings—

SENATOR HUME: And then it ratcheted up over 9 years and then—

SENATOR AYRES: –it undermined them under you guys with a six-year rebate freeze. And you know this the same old movie replaying over again. Big commitments ahead of an election, but they will rat on it. In the event that Peter Dutton became Prime Minister, he would do exactly what he did last time and undermine Medicare again.

HOST: Let's go back to this policy. What do you say to the doubters, including doctors, groups like the AMA, who say this isn't going to transform bulk billing overnight and the 90% target that's been set for 2030 isn't going to be achievable?

SENATOR AYRES: Well, I think it's certainly achievable. It's been welcomed across the health system. It puts in place very strong incentives for practices to move across to 100% bulk billing. It is the biggest investment in Medicare in a generation. It will save the system and secure it for future generations of Australians. As one of the key things that makes us proud to be Australians, that we've got a universal healthcare system where it doesn't matter what the balance is in your bank account, you can always front up with your kid, get their health looked after, bulk billing, whether you're a pensioner, whether you're a family, whether you're anybody, right across Australia, this system is for everybody and only Labor can be trusted. Only Labor can be trusted to maintain and protect this system and to build it for future generations.

SENATOR HUME: And yet it has never been harder nor more expensive to see a GP than it has been under the three years of Labor.

HOST: On that, then, this $8.5 billion policy the Coalition has committed to, is this it for the Coalition when it comes to health policy before the election?

SENATOR HUME: No. We've in fact said that we will fund an additional 10 Medicare funded places for mental health as well. So, it's not just an $8.5 billion commitment investing in Medicare to ensure bulk billing and clean up the mess that Labor has left, but we will add to that by delivering a better service. In fact, I would challenge Labor to match us on those additional Medicare funded mental health appointments because Australians have asked for it and we've said that we will deliver it, but we said it two years ago. I'm not sure where you guys have been.

SENATOR AYRES: I've got a yard full of used cars and a harbour bridge I could sell you too. Nobody believes Peter Dutton on Medicare. He was the worst Health Minister on record. He got the sack from Tony Abbott, moved along, replaced by Sussan Ley. Six years’ worth of freezes on Medicare. Expenditure for rebates, $50 billion—

HOST: We have heard that point.

SENATOR AYRES: But you'll hear it again and again. Because unhappily for Mr. Dutton, it is true. It's his record.

SENATOR HUME: And yet, bulk billing was higher under Peter Dutton than Mark Butler.

SENATOR AYRES: Australians are entitled to have absolute confidence that Labor will actually act in the interests of the system and that we are fixing up the mess that we inherited.

HOST: I want to move on to nuclear policy. Jane Hume, we heard from Matt Kean today from the Climate Change Authority, the new head of that authority. He's released a new nuclear report, essentially saying that under the Coalition's nuclear policy, there would be a 2 billion tonne carbon bomb that targets like net zero by 2050 would be in serious question. Have you seen it and what did you make?

SENATOR HUME: Well, I certainly haven't seen the report. Obviously. It was only released today. We're sitting in Senate Estimates today. But it's such a shame because the Climate Change Authority used to be such a credible organisation. It does seem to be politically captured now. I would have thought that its first responsibility would be delivering climate change policy to government. That's certainly part of its mandate. It should have delivered climate change policy advice for a 2035 target, and yet that seems to have failed to materialise. It's well past its use by date. I'm not entirely sure what the Climate Change Authority is doing delivering advice on an opposition policy when it's supposed to be providing advice to government.

HOST: Some in the Coalition have called this politicisation of the Authority. Do you agree with that sort of language? Has the government politicised this authority?

SENATOR HUME: Yes, I think it has, which is really sad, because there are so many good public servants that work for the Climate Change Authority. Good, solid, independent people that have done great work for many years. It's a shame that their reputations have been sullied by this.

HOST: Would you keep Matt Kean as Chair of that Authority?

SENATOR HUME: I don't think that we could possibly maintain a Climate Change Authority that has been so badly politicised.

HOST: So, he would be dumped from the Authority.

SENATOR HUME: That's not a decision for me, but I cannot imagine that we possibly maintain a Climate Change Authority that has been so poorly, so badly politicised, it simply isn't serving its purpose to provide independent advice to government on its climate change policy. Where is that climate change policy? Where is your target for 2035? Because if it's not doing that, what is it doing?

HOST: Tim, are you comfortable with public servants running an eye over opposition policies?

SENATOR AYRES: Well, this is, this is what happens for the Liberals when they adopt such a marginalised, bad policy idea as nuclear. I understand they don't want it to be scrutinised. But the head of the Climate Change Authority is a Liberal, a former Treasurer of NSW. And once you have a Liberal criticising the Liberal's nuclear policy, suddenly he's part of some big conspiracy too. It just doesn't hold up. The truth is a bad idea. Nuclear reactors for Australia will mean 2 billion extra tonnes of emissions. It will mean higher prices for Australian households, $1200 a year. That means you've got to scrape up $300 or $400 extra at the end of every quarter to pay your power bill. And it means at its core, the core assumption that sits under the so called costings that come in this report that'll be subject to, I think, a little bit of discussion in a few minutes time in the Estimates that I'm sitting in, is that electricity intensive manufacturing in Australia will be forced offshore. That is 50% of industrial electricity intensive manufacturing closes under the Liberals plan.

HOST: The Climate Change Authority doesn't have the time to prepare 2035 advice for the government, but did have the time to put together a fairly significant piece of work modelling the Opposition's new plans.

SENATOR AYRES: We should be a little bit adult about this, really. There is a 2035 report that the Climate Change Authority will deliver. They will be looking closely at developments around the world. At developments around the world. Because we'll be doing it in the national interest, Jane, like, not for some partisan timetable, but in the national interest with regard to the requirements that Australia has for industrial electricity, for making sure that we deliver a low cost and reliable energy sector. That's what the Climate Change Authority is working on. They have of their own motion, assessed nuclear reactors, because it is, I think, a good thing that there's more transparency about a report that was the costings that were released by Mr. Dutton just before Christmas, when most Australians are in Lowes or Grace Brothers or whatever, doing their Christmas shopping, hoping that it would skate through without any scrutiny. Well, it will put prices up. It will force industry offshore, and it is a very bad plan indeed for Australia.

SENATOR HUME: Are you referring to our Frontier Economics report? Because that wasn't our report, that was entirely independent. And nobody, nobody, including you guys, has refuted the assumptions in that Frontier report, that said nuclear was 40% cheaper.

SENATOR AYRES: The core assumption that those dodgy costings are based upon is that electricity intensive manufacturing in Australia closes down. That's what the report says. 50%--

SENATOR HUME: They're not us, they're AEMO’s—

SENATOR AYRES: 50%. So, the report has chosen one of the AEMO scenarios. The bad one. That forces industry offshore and made it core to your costings.

HOST: Well, I'm afraid that's all the time we've got. You two both have to race off to Estimates, but thank you so much for joining me. Tim Ayres, thank you very much. Thanks, Jane Hume. Thanks for being here. Thanks.