Subjects: COP, net zero, CSIRO, Tomago Aluminium

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: Earlier this afternoon I spoke to the Minister for Industry and Science. Tim Ayres. Minister, Welcome to the program.

SENATOR TIM AYRES, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND INNOVATION AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE: G'day, Patricia, good to be on the show.

HOST: On this COP conference. Are you quietly celebrating the fact that we don't have to spend a possible $2 billion on hosting this event?

AYRES: I think it's a good outcome for Australia and a good outcome for our Pacific partners. That was always the priority here for Australia. These conferences, these conventions, are not an end in themselves, they are to secure an outcome for Australia and the world. We want to play our role highlighting the issues that climate change presents for this region, and in particular, for Australians and our Pacific partners. And we want to make sure that there's ambitious global targets that are delivering for Australia. That's the real objective behind these meetings, given the impasse, that was occurring. I think this is a very good outcome for Australia, and Chris's leadership over the water there, in Brazil, has delivered a very creditable outcome.

HOST: Ok, why does Chris Bowen have to lead the negotiations? Like why was that part of the deal and does it mean he has to leave the Parliament?

AYRES: No, no, I don't see how that follows. He's our Minister for Climate Change and Energy. There is an international dimension to those responsibilities in Australia. If climate change is unabated, if international action doesn't continue to improve in a measurable way, Australia suffers some of the worst consequences from that, in terms of our food security, the security of our region, our Pacific partners, are particularly badly impacted, and of course, Australia stands to benefit as the world's industrial processes shift to lower emissions processes. So having Chris there playing that leadership role is actually absolutely in Australia's interest and consistent with his responsibility as a minister.

HOST: And in terms of the focus, though, we know that the Coalition is trying to put a big focus on just energy. He's the energy and climate change minister.

AYRES: Are they? Are they really?

HOST: You might not think it's working, but that's a whole other conversation. Let me finish my question. If he's the energy and climate change minister and he's leading these COP negotiations, does it mean the focus then is just on the climate elements here?

AYRES: No, we've got to deliver, as a government on rebuilding our modernised electricity system that fell apart in the previous decade because there was no investment in it and the previous government couldn't land a coherent policy framework. I'm not sure really that the opposition, the Liberals and Nationals, do want to focus on energy questions. They've moved on pretty quick, like less than 24 hours. Suddenly, it's a distraction in another area that they want to talk about because it took five minutes for their approach to rebuilding Australia's electricity system, to delivering energy security and energy certainty to fall apart. It took five minutes of sunlight. Now they're moving on talking about other things, because they desperately don't want to talk about energy, they desperately don't want to talk about emissions reductions. They desperately don't want to talk about the security issues that are that are at the heart of Australia's national interest approach on energy and on climate change.

HOST: If we're just going to conduct negotiations, why wouldn't a Pacific nation do that directly instead? Like Fiji, for instance?

AYRES: Well, I'm here in Newcastle, as I understand it, there will be meetings hosted in the Pacific as part of this process. So, Australia's role here, working with our Pacific partners, has been elevate the issues confronted by those Pacific states, this solution to this impasse does achieve that objective, and like in many other areas, Patricia, Australia, taking a role, a leadership role, on international negotiations, is absolutely in the interests of our Pacific partners. I know myself in the previous term, in my role as Assistant Trade Minister, working for Don Farrell, as the Trade Minister, Australia playing a leadership role on global fishing rights and the trade rights around fishing entitlements, it's absolutely welcomed by the Pacific, and has meant the Pacific has had a much bigger impact in that case on WTO negotiations. I'm very confident Chris playing this leadership role here, Australia positioning the way that we have is in our national interest and in the interests of our partners in the Pacific.

HOST: When will the government release the long awaited gas strategy? Will it happen before Christmas?

AYRES: Well, those decisions will be made by the cabinet and by the government. I want to front run the timing of those issues. Of course, Chris has been leading this process, along with—

HOST: Gas is so important, right? Like for industry, we know this. So, can you give us some steer? Because there's obviously been a long negotiation about this with. We're waiting to see what this strategy is and how it will affect emissions as well. Will it happen before Christmas, Minister?

AYRES: There's no lack of big issues in front of this government. We're tackling it in a structural way. 30 years of gas policy failure, undertaking this review, it'll be delivered in a timely way. It'll be delivered as part of a consistent cabinet process. And of course, you're right. Patricia, as the Industry Minister, the process for our small and medium manufacturing businesses of making sure that they've got access to gas where they can, support them with announcements like the $5 billion in the Net Zero Fund administered by the National Reconstruction Fund to support those businesses to move from expensive gas to lower cost green electricity. And of course, I'm focused on those big industrial gas users, where their shift to gas production, or gas as a feedstock, is absolutely fundamental to their future competitiveness and making sure that we've got a supply of gas for future industry is absolutely crucial to Future Made in Australia. And as you can imagine, I'm very focused on this. Chris Bowen and Madeleine King are leading this process and working very closely with them and will deliver a result when the cabinet signs off on the approach.

HOST: Minister, on the CSIRO, your predecessor was on the program yesterday. He talked a lot about it. He said the government sees this scientific agency funding as a cost, not an investment. Is that the problem here?

AYRES: I have to say I've been in Western Australia and then in the Hunter Valley. I missed the show yesterday, Patricia.

HOST: Outrageous.

AYRES: I know I'm very sorry. I'm very sorry. I'll improve my viewing habits accordingly. I just say this; we have a fantastic national science agency. It is the envy of the world. It is supported—

HOST: Yeah. So, why cut its jobs then? Why cut its jobs?

AYRES: Let me come to that point quickly. There is circa a billion dollars a year. There's no funding cuts, circa a billion dollars a year for this agency. What has happened here is, for the first time in 15 years, the CSIRO has had a systemic look at its research portfolio and is going through a process of making sure that portfolio is aligned with our national science priorities. Not all of these programs run forever Patricia. They have a beginning, and they have an end. Science, as you can imagine, over the course of that 15 years, has changed dramatically. That the process of scientific research, who is doing that research, the weight, the balance of what's going on in our university system, in the private sector has changed as well. So, you want to deal with duplication questions. And of course, as we shift towards the CSIRO having a greater focus on, say, an issue like climate adaptation, that does mean changing priorities, does mean a change in programs. Now I don't want to, I don't want to belittle in any way how significant that is for those scientists and researchers and their support teams who are engaged in that work, but that's what is going on.

HOST: Does it need to be addressed, though? Do you think it needs to be addressed? Are you going to be the Minister that goes into cabinet and says we need to be spending more on this?

AYRES: I won't outline what happens in our ERC processes or in our cabinet, but I am determined—there is a set of issues here, firstly, on research priority, and I support the CSIRO making sure that every science dollar is spent in the national interest, consistent with our national research priorities. There are issues that the organisation faces an enormous number of facilities and buildings with sharply escalated costs. There are issues there for the future. I will not walk past problems. I will not walk past these issues. I will work closely with the CSIRO, consult with the union that represents scientists and research workers and administration and support teams across the CSIRO, I'll work with our friends across the research community to make sure that we deliver a strong, fit for purpose, capable national science institution for future decades because Australia's national interest demands it. Whether it's dealing with disease preparedness, whether it's food security questions, whether it's climate adaptation, it's the CSIRO that's either conducting that research itself or often playing a leadership role across the university system and research institutions to deliver better outcomes.

HOST: Minister, I have to ask you about something else. Before I let you go, the Rio Tinto board is meeting on Friday. They're going to discuss Tomago, of course, do you have a message to them as this process goes on. What do you hope they decide?

AYRES: There'll be a series of meetings over coming weeks. We are working very closely with the owners of that facility, including Rio Tinto, very closely engaged over these questions. From the Commonwealth Government's perspective, working in partnership with New South Wales and with the company, you know, you don't get solutions here if there's a crack of light between us on these questions. This is a really important industrial facility. It plays a really important role in the grid and for current and future electricity demand and supply in New South Wales, we are working through these issues very carefully. As I've said to you before on your show and publicly in other places. There's no guarantee of an outcome here, but what your viewers can be assured of is this government absolutely working very hard to achieve the right outcome for Tomago luminum, the right outcome for the Hunter Valley and the right outcome for Australia's aluminum production.

HOST: Thank you so much for your time, Minister.

AYRES: Thanks, Patricia.

ENDS.