PATRICIA KARAVELAS, HOST: Let's go straight to my first guest, the newly appointed Industry and Science Minister, Tim Ayres. Hi Tim, welcome to the program.

SENATOR TIM AYRES, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND INNOVATION AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE: G'day, Patricia. Good to talk to you.

HOST: Congratulations on your appointment. Let's start with today’s tariff news, it is very significant news. The government must be relieved. Does this give you hope that there might be an end to these tariffs?

AYRES: Well, we haven't been relying upon the internal legal processes in the United States where we are not a participant in those proceedings. We have been engaging directly in the bilateral discussions. So, let's see what happens here. I'm reluctant to reflect on today's news. There has been a lot of news and a lot of developments coming out of the United States on the trade and tariff front, and the government, led here by the Trade Minister Don Farrell, have to be really focused on the Australian outlook. And I’ll just make the point, while the bilateral trade relationship is very important to Australia, it's the impact on the global trading environment that the government has been focused on.

Ever since the imposition of impediments to trade in the China market by the Chinese government, and the Albanese government's approach to that in the first instance, while we are focused on the bilateral consequences, we were also focused again on what are the impacts for the global trade market. And the lesson for Australia is, yes, we have to be effective in these bilateral engagements and fight for Australia's interest and the interests of Australian firms, but we also have to diversify the markets with whom we sell and the products and services that we offer the world to make Australia more economically resilient.

HOST: Just to be clear, you're saying you are not going to get excited about this court ruling in the US, you're going to keep continuing to advocate that we are not subjected to the tariffs rather than relying on the system of obviously their court system being able to overrule this decision?

AYRES: Well, I think that's the sensible approach. We will see what happens in the course of events within the United States, but that is a matter for the United States and its legal system. No doubt there will be further applications and appeals, and all sorts of processes engaged in the United States. What we want to do is keep squarely focused on Australia's interest. I mean, if there was genuinely a reciprocal trade tariff in the trade relationship between the United States, the tariff level would be zero. That's the truth of it. It's a very unwelcome development. It's an unwelcome development in terms of the bilateral relationship ‑ the bilateral economic relationship.

What I'm concerned about as well, and the government is concerned about, is the impact on the rules‑based order and the global trading system that Australia relies upon so much and people in the suburbs and regions rely upon. You know, one out of every four Australian jobs is trade reliant, and workers who work in firms that are trade exposed have got better collective bargaining arrangements, higher wages, better jobs, more decent jobs.

HOST: Look, I know that Anthony Albanese may be able to meet Donald Trump it seems for the first time next month. Maybe on the sidelines at the G7 is an option. Does that mean he doesn't have to kind of beg Donald Trump in that meeting potentially for an exemption, or is there still opportunity for that? I mean, I'm just wondering how you factor in this court ruling and our own advocacy in that next meeting.

AYRES: I think what you would expect to see is Anthony Albanese as the Australian Prime Minister standing up for Australia's interests in a calm and consistent way. He certainly won't be, as you say, begging any global leader for anything. We do things the Australian way here.

HOST: Sorry, does the Australian way mean no begging? Just to be clear.

AYRES: Well, I think – of course. Of course it does. It means projecting Australia's interests and values into the world and thinking in very clear‑eyed ways about, you know, the impact on Australia and Australian exports here; on the depth of the economic relationship and making the argument in the interests of the economic relationship; and of course all of the global firms in the United States who rely upon for their supply chains with Australian goods and services.

Now, we have a very deep economic relationship. You can expect the Prime Minister to be making those arguments in a calm and consistent way just as he does in other relationships around the world. But we have also got to attend to making sure while we are, you know, going to work in a pretty full court press on the issues that we've just been talking about, it's also absolutely essential that we continue the work of diversifying the Australian economy, both in market terms but also in terms of the products and services that we offer the world and moving up the value chain. That's what the Future Made in Australia plan is all about and that's why, you know, I'm absolutely thrilled to be doing the work that I'm doing to support that economic growth, diversification, economic resilience, and productivity agenda that this portfolio offers me the opportunity to contribute to.

HOST: So, Minister, just a final question on the critical minerals part of the offer that we had originally made to get an exemption. Is that going to be back on the table when the prime minister does potentially meet Donald Trump?

AYRES: Well, Australia is the best destination in the world for critical minerals investment. We have not just some of the critical minerals that the world requires ‑

HOST: Yes, I know all that, but are they going to be part of the negotiation, is the key part of the question.

AYRES: Well, we are keen to engage with all of our international partners about investment in critical minerals production in Australia, about supporting the growth in renewables, batteries, semi‑conductors. You know, all of the technologies that critical minerals support, Australia is a reliable and trusted partner with our friends in the United States, Europe, the North Asian economies right around the world. That's what our focus will be. Of course it's on the table, we have agreements and engagement with the United States on these issues. There are technology firms in the United States that of course are absolutely focused on getting secure supply, and here in Australia we want to see investment in the value‑add, in the production and refining and smelting of the critical minerals in the regions in Australia. You know, these factories aren't built in the central business districts of our cities, they are built in the outer suburbs and in regional economies and that's where we want to see that economic development take place.

HOST: Now, Minister, you are new of course to this portfolio of industry and science. Your predecessor had talked to me about working on AI regulations. So, there are a few different models. I would like to sort of pin you down as much as I can, I know you've had all the briefings now. There are different models. There's the EU model but there are other models which aren't so intensive. What is your preference?

AYRES: Well, of course – can I give you the sort of bland answer that you don't want to hear first? 

HOST: No, never. Never give me a bland answer, absolutely not. It is banned.

AYRES: And then I want to open up a little bit more. But of course, we are an orderly Cabinet style government Patricia, and there are big issues here for Australia in a regulatory sense. And those issues span, all of the issues that Ed would have talked to you about, about how we engage issues from as far apart as copyright, you know, some of the other harms that are potentially engaged here. But my starting point, when it comes to artificial intelligence and the digital economy more broadly, is I’m absolutely seized of the opportunity in terms of growth. You know, the Treasurer is right to point to the productivity challenge, and this is one way that my portfolio can contribute to fully engage the productivity opportunities that artificial intelligence offers ordinary Australians, and Australian firms, and Australian workplaces all the way from, you know, manufacturing to retail.

HOST: Okay.

AYRES: This is ‑ that technology diffusion ‑ 

HOST: Okay, what I'm getting from that is, I mean Sir Keir Starmer, I know in the UK are kind of very interested in the area, I think it's a huge area. He set a pretty big agenda in relation to AI to improve outcomes in for instance the NHS using AI, other cost savings in the public sector. Do you think AI should be used like that?

AYRES: We will work through these issues carefully as a government, but of course it's not just a cost savings proposition. The potential of AI to augment workers’ work, to change the way that work is performed and that services are offered is of course growing in an exponential way. And I want to make sure that Australia is in the frontline of adoption of new technology. So AI, yes, but the digital economy more broadly. I'm very enthusiastic about the opportunities for digital infrastructure, particularly data centres.

My approach – we started this on the regulation side, and of course government will work in a careful way through those issues and I'm keen to work with my colleagues in a collaborative way on those questions. But the way that we shape Australia's interaction with this new wave of technological change that offers so much in growth and productivity terms is to lean in. That's my basic, you know, if you are asking what my philosophical setting is ‑

HOST: You are saying that we need to use it ‑

AYRES: ‑ we need to get engaged in the world in order to shape the world, because the alternative is that we are at the end of technological supply chains that will shape us. I'm for leaning in, rolling our sleeves up, working with the tech sector, working across the public sector, you are right to point to the opportunities across the public sector with the states and territories, but also with workers. Make sure that workers and their unions are engaged fully in this next wave of technological change because it's going to matter in productivity terms and it's going to matter in competitive terms for Australia. Whether you're in a blue-collar job, whether you're a blue-collar firm or a services firm, this next wave of technological change is going to matter, and I'm determined that Australia seizes the benefits of it.

HOST: Minister, thanks for joining us this afternoon.

AYRES: Thanks Patricia.

ENDS