GREG JENNETT, HOST: Of course, still, there's been a decisive shift in tactics by all Senate forces, which require further analysis. Government frontbencher Tim Ayres has been in the thick of it and has a bill of his own caught in the Senate logjam. We'll talk about that, he's with us in the studio now. Tim, welcome back to the program. Is that the most unproductive week you've spent in the Senate?

SENATOR TIM AYRES, ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR A FUTURE MADE IN AUSTRALIA AND TRADE: Yeah, it's a pretty disappointing week, I think disappointing, particularly for young Australian families that want to buy a home. The core focus of the new coalition that's emerging in the Senate, the extreme Greens on one side and the Liberals and Nationals- Peter Dutton’s Liberals and Nationals-who are becoming increasingly extremist and partisan in their approach. This was a very straightforward bill. It would have given 40,000 people a leg-up to buy their own home- low and middle income Australians, it would have meant nurses and teachers, police, fire brigade, people who we really count on, would have had the capacity to buy their own home for the first time, and they are the real losers out of out of what has been, as you say, a very unproductive week.

JENNETT: That's not going to change, though, is it? I mean those blocs that are forming on procedural votes and others mean you've got no real prospect to break this deadlock. What happens in particular with Help to Buy? What's the government's next move?

AYRES: Well, we're going to keep pressing on. It's a good scheme. We'll make some decisions about what is in the best interests of the people who we're trying to look after. Now that's what this is about. We are on the side of young families who want to buy their own home.

JENNETT: Does that mean you might alter the bill? Because I think I heard- correct me if I'm wrong- Penny Wong in Senate question time referred to a reintroduction around a second version of the bill. Does that mean it might change and come back?

AYRES: Well, we'll make some judgments about the best approach. I haven't been taken through those issues. All I can tell you is that we're on the side of young people who want to buy a home. What has really happened here is self-indulgent bludging from the Greens and the Liberals and Nationals. It's just hyper-partisanship and student politics. And if people want to do student politics, they should enroll in a course at university. It's always embarrassing; the mature age student who gets involved in student politics. it has been pretty embarrassing, so embarrassing for the Greens party, that while there's been a lot of hot air and noise from them about this issue, they refused to actually allow this proposition to get put to a vote.  They denied the bill in a way that minimized the embarrassment for them.

JENNETT: But ultimately, that's the government's problem, isn't it? You have no real prospects of getting any controversial- as things stand-no real prospect of getting any controversial bill through pretty much for the remainder of this Parliament. It's about time to accept that, isn't it or change negotiations?

AYRES: Well, it's a problem if you're a nurse in a country town who wants to buy a home. It's a problem if you're a teacher, a tradie or a truck driver who wants to buy a home. That's the real effect of this. In the senators’ minds here- who you know all have comfortable circumstances, are all doing okay- that they have denied people who really need the security of a home to help their families. All the security and benefits that that provides.

JENNETT: And those people only have a small group of people to blame?

AYRES:  Yeah, Peter Dutton and the Greens political party have denied them the opportunity. If you're missing out, you know who to blame.

JENNETT: I understand the argument, but set against that is the idea that it's a modest scheme, 10,000 a year, 40,000 over for very much at the margins, isn't it? Would you acknowledge that?

AYRES: Well, it's only a small part of the government's overall approach. $32 billion- the big focus, of course, is dealing with supply. The Prime Minister was in Cairns this morning on his way to the Quad meeting announcing 490 new homes supported by the federal government and the state government under our broader scheme for South Cairns. That'll make a huge difference to people in Cairns, young people in Cairns, who want to buy their first home, 490 additional homes. These kinds of developments all over the country, some big, some small, all adding up to us deploying $32 billion of capital to be on the side of ordinary Australians who want to buy their own home or need affordable rent. That's what the government's doing. Governing. We have got an election in the first half of next year, 2024, that should be about implementing good policy in the interests of Australia. We've got housing stuck. Future Made in Australia. Our manufacturing bill still waiting for a signal from these characters that they're prepared to act in the national interest.

JENNETT: Well, thank you for taking me there, because that's precisely where I wanted to go. Moving on from housing, this is the bill that you are charged with shepherding through the Senate. So as things stand, it could go the same way of Help to Buy. Are you talking to the Greens presently, to salvage this?

AYRES: Of course, we're talking to the Greens and across the parliament. I'm just not sure what Peter Dutton and the Liberals and Nationals are opposed to in the Future Made in Australia Act.

JENNETT: You're not going to get them. Are you?

AYRES: Of course, we're talking to the crossbench, but the giveaway is in the title, the Future Made in Australia. I'm not sure whether they're opposed to the future, or to manufacturing in Australia, or they're opposed to the Australian national interest, because that's what this bill is all about. The benefits of a Future Made in Australia flow to good manufacturing jobs in our regions and outer suburbs. And at the moment, there is no sign we've got opposition from Peter Dutton, the Liberals, who wouldn't know the national interest if it bit them. And we're still waiting to hear from the Greens political party that they're actually prepared to act in the interests of a lower-carbon, stronger renewable energy superpower economy that they claim to support.

JENNETT: Well, they certainly say they are on that presentation of their position. More specifically, though, they would be wanting to talk to you about gas projects around Middle Arm in the Northern Territory and Beetaloo Basin developments. Are they talking to you about excising those, excluding those from any benefits contained in FMIA?

AYRES: Well, of course, I don't want to go into the discussions that we're having with colleagues on the crossbench, because we'll continue to pursue those discussions, but I might make a broader point. This is a discrete piece of legislation that does a particular piece of work here and trying to attach all sorts of issues from across the economy to this is not going to work,

JENNETT: Although they're actually integrally linked. Aren't they, when we get to gas and renewables? All of that is in the pot of Future Made in Australia.

AYRES: Yes, in a technical and economic and technological sense. Of course, they are. I mean, some of these big developments where what we want to do is bring onshore investment in green iron manufacturing in Australia, hydrogen manufacturing, critical minerals manufacturing. Of course, gas is engaged as a feedstock as we transition to higher and higher levels of hydrogen in these projects, that's a technological fact. That's a fact that I know people struggle to understand when all you’re about is sloganeering on these questions. But if we're going to -

JENNETT: You mean the Greens?

AYRES: -if we're going to move to a renewable energy superpower economy where we rebuild manufacturing in our regions and our suburbs, it needs Future Made in Australia to back that in to provide certainty for the investment community that wasn't there under the Morrison-Abbott-Turnbull catastrophe; we had disinvestment in Australian manufacturing, disinvestment in the energy sector, we are all about getting the best manufacturers from around the world, global capital here, supporting Australian jobs and Australian industry onshore.

JENNETT: And you reckon this has still got a fighting chance?

AYRES: We are going to keep making the argument, because it's in Australia's interest, and we're on the side of good jobs in the regions and outer suburbs.

JENNETT: We'll know soon enough, indeed, when perhaps the Senate returns. Tim Ayres, we'll wrap it up there. Thank you for your stock take on what was a fairly unproductive week, but there's a few -

AYRES: C minus, Greg,

JENNETT: All right. Thanks for scoring. There are a few things to observe about it. I'm glad we've done that.

AYRES: Thanks, Greg.

ENDS.