HOST, PATRICIA KARVELAS: To talk through some of the big issues of today. And there have been some very big issues today. I spoke to one of my political panels, Shadow Finance Minister Jane Hume and Assistant Trade Minister Tim Ayres a short time ago. Jane Hume, Tim Ayres, welcome to the program.

 

SENATOR JANE HUME: Good to be with you, PK.

 

HOST: Let's start on those tariffs that have been announced for everyone by Donald Trump; 25% tariffs on steel and aluminium. The Prime Minister, Jane, revealed in Question Time that he has a phone call with President Trump scheduled. That's quite impressive, isn't it, to be able to schedule a phone call this weekend? Richard Marles being, of course, in the United States working on AUKUS. Clearly the government has been very active here.

 

SENATOR HUME: Well, it's entirely necessary that the Prime Minister take the initiative here to reach out to the Trump administration, because there could be a profound effect here. Now, when the coalition were in government, that's exactly what we did with the last Trump administration, and successfully made sure that Australia had an exemption for any tariffs that were being imposed there. We hope that Anthony Albanese can do the same. It's going to be very important for our future prosperity.

 

HOST: Can you do it in one phone call?

 

SENATOR TIM AYRES: Well, it's certainly the last time around, I think Jane's right to refer to some of the history here, what happened there took time. It took time. It took effort at Prime Ministerial level, took effort at Ministerial level and also official to official dialogue. Now, that's what's going to happen here. What the previous government had, actually was, the opposition's support in that endeavour. What I've seen today is Mr. Littleproud and Mr. Hogan, the trade spokesperson, out there undermining the Australian team, undermining the Australian team in Washington, in particular. It's actually a moment where all of the Australian system needs to pull together and this government has demonstrated a track record of working through these trade issues in the region and how we're going to.

 

HOST: Let me pick you up. You're basically saying it takes while, so not to expect that the Prime Minister can achieve this exemption in one phone call.

 

SENATOR AYRES: We're just going to work through it in a steady way in the national interest. That's what we've done in relation to all of the trade challenges in what is a less stable global trading environment, where it's very important that the government is out there acting in Australia's national interest. To put in the national interest first, not megaphone diplomacy first.

 

HOST: Jane Hume. It isn't realistic, is it? And if you look at how long it took actually Malcolm Turnbull in his own words today, saying, you know, he said, “we discussed the issue directly on many occasions. It took some time to change his mind.” That if we're going to use the coalition as an example, that is the Prime Minister that negotiated, it took took some time, he says.

 

SENATOR HUME: Well, we would hope that the Albanese government can use its good relationships throughout. Whether at Prime Minister level, at officials level, at ambassadorial level, its good relationships with the Trump administration. If those good relationships exist, that's exactly what happened under a Coalition government. Whether it took time or not, those relationships existed.

 

HOST: It's not just one phone call, though.

 

SENATOR HUME: Well, in fact, we called on Anthony Albanese to take the initiative here and contact the Trump administration himself. We're very pleased that that's what he's doing because there is no time to waste.

 

HOST: Now, you mentioned something, Tim Ayres, that I just want to ask you about, which is the politicisation, if you like, or not working in one team. Kevin Rudd again was raised by David Littleproud as perhaps not the right person for the job. Isn't that unnecessary? Don't we need to be on board, given he's the Ambassador, to ensure that he can do all of the work that he needs to do to get this deal done?

 

SENATOR HUME: Well, it was the Prime Minister's call to make Kevin Rudd the Ambassador to the US, despite the fact that he had made disparaging comments about the Trump administration, about Donald Trump himself, prior to taking on that role. Now, that was always going to be a risk, but that's the Prime Minister's call. It was a captain's pick, so he's going to have to live with it.

 

HOST: Have you said disparaging things about Donald Trump? No, never? On the record?

 

JANE: No.

 

HOST: No, never? On the record?

 

JANE: No.

 

HOST: Have you?

 

SENATOR AYRES: I don't think so. I think, I think that the point here, Patricia, is the last government talked about Team Australia all of the time, but what they're doing here is they're out there undermining the team that's representing Australia. We are in opposition because we put the national interest first. We didn't pick Joe Hockey as the ambassador either, but we certainly weren't out there undermining Mr. Hockey or any of Australia's other representatives around the world. It's cheap politics. It's hyper partisan. It's putting the partisan interest first. We're not interested in any of that. We are just going to focus on what is in the national interest here and the steel and aluminium sectors really matter for Australia. They matter for Gladstone and Central Queensland.

 

HOST. So, if we didn't get the exemption, what's the impact on jobs?

 

SENATOR AYRES: Well, this is why we announced the $2 billion package, because the aluminum and steel sectors matter.

 

HOST: I asked you a specific question, which is, if you can't get an exemption from Donald Trump, what is the impact on these jobs?

 

SENATOR AYRES: Well, today we've had an announcement on an airplane from President Trump to a journalist that's been reported widely. The team in Washington and our efforts more broadly will be targeted, getting to the bottom of exactly what is proposed - what the timeframe is, and not going to be shooting off at the mouth about the possible impact of something that hasn' that hasn't been announced and is going to require some time to work through. None of this, none of this I should say, is a surprise. It's been very clear the change in administration would lead to a change in -

 

HOST: Broad ideas about tariffs, that's for sure. Jane Hume, what are the consequences for jobs if Australia can't secure an exemption?

 

SENATOR HUME: Well, potentially, I think there's around $550 million worth of steel and aluminium exports that are potentially subject to these tariffs. So, it is a really important sector for us and of course that sector employs thousands of Australians. We know how important this is, which is why we have urged the Prime Minister to take the initiative here. We're very pleased to see he's done so. We look forward to the outcome.

 

SENATOR AYRES: I should say, Patricia, just on that. I mean, firstly, if the Coalition supported the industry, they would have backed the $2 billion package last week and they'd back Future Made in Australia. But it's also the case that our steel and aluminium sector feeds directly into American production processes. So, with this group of partners deeply engaged in American supply chains and supporting manufacturing and their defence industry in particular, it's a crucial, along with our critical minerals sector more broadly, it is a crucial part of two-way trade and the Americans have had a long-standing surplus in. In trade with Australia and that is something that is in both of our interests.

 

HOST: I want to talk about a couple of other issues before I let you go. Westpac says inflation is on track to fall even faster than expected. And Jane Hume, even stronger predictions that next week will mean we get an interest rate cut. What are your reflections on Westpac's position on inflation? Clearly, we are hearing a consensus that inflation is really coming down. Do you think it's time the RBA act?

 

SENATOR HUME: Well, I'm not going to preempt what the RBA's decision is going to be, and that will come as no surprise to you. Suffice to say that the RBA clearly have had their foot on the brake for a really long time. Our concern is that Jim Chalmers at the same time has been pump priming the accelerator, which is why it's taken so long for rates to come down. You can't have your fiscal policy and your monetary policy working against each other. In the meantime, it's Australians that are paying the price. That's why we've seen living standards collapse at a faster and deeper rate than ever before, 8.7% over the last two and a half years. That's why Australians are feeling poorer, because interest has been too high for too long and that's because inflation has stayed too high for too long.

 

HOST: Inflation figures predictions obviously from Westpac are pretty positive. If you, if you want to get an interest rate cut, do you expect the RBA to cut rates?

 

SENATOR AYRES: Well, I won't be giving advice to the RBA.

 

HOST: I've seen other people do it.

 

SENATOR AYRES: That'd be a novel thing for a Minister of the government to do. I love novelty, but I'm not going to do that on your show today. It's certainly the case that inflation has been tracking down significantly in a sustained way since the dizzying heights that it was at when we took office at the end of the Morrison government. It was high and it was going up. Now it's well within the target range and it's going down. Unemployment average level over the course of this government is at a 50 year low. There are good reasons for confidence in where the economy is at. There are still people who are doing it tough in the economy. That's why we are going to continue to offer cost of living relief and work hard to get the fundamentals right, including keeping downward pressure on inflation.

 

HOST: I just want to go back to your spending point, Jane, saying that they've cut too much money in the economy. One area your side has identified is these public service jobs - 36,000 of them. David Littleproud has suggested that the reduction would be through natural attrition. But that's a lot of jobs through natural attrition. Can you just clarify, will there be active job cuts and will it be to the tune of the 36,000?

 

SENATOR HUME: So, we know that there is always natural attrition in the public sector.

 

HOST: That would be a lot of natural attrition.

 

SENATOR HUME: That's actually not that far off, believe it or not. But what our concern is, of course, is that the most recent budget figures show that even though there has been this 36,000 increase in the size of public service. A 20% increase in just two and a half years, plus an 11% pay rise for public servants. In that period of time, public sector wages in the budget have flatlined. Now, that simply doesn't make sense. We've had that costed out by the PBO. I wanted to understand how that could possibly be. And they've suggested that either the government has factored in a 20,000 decrease in the size of the public service, even though the Minister for the Public Service has said there will be no cuts at all, or there's an $11.1 billion budget black hole. One of the two must be true. And there seems to be a very inadequate explanation for this great big budget deception.

 

HOST: Which one is true?

 

SENATOR AYRES: Well, these guys are making up as they go along.

 

SENATOR HUME: Well, what is the PBO, mate?

 

SENATOR AYRES: What is true is that there are 36,000 additional positions in the public sector that are providing good services to Australians, mostly in regional areas.

 

HOST: But I mean, on that funding question, was the question.

 

SENATOR AYRES: Well, mostly in regional areas, doing things like shortening up the queue for Veterans, shortening up the queue in Services Australia, not doing Robodebt and all those other things that the Liberals did in office to try and cut spending. Now we have delivered over the course of the last two budgets, budget surpluses, $90 billion in savings. I think Australians can rely upon our record in government. That is providing -

 

HOST: That's not an answer -

 

SENATOR AYRES: Providing better public services, providing savings and making sure we're backing people.

 

HOST: On how much it will cost the budget. Providing savings, does that mean, going forward, you want to reduce the public service cost?

 

SENATOR AYRES: I'm very confident that that team of Katy Gallagher and Jim Chalmers, who have delivered tens of billions of dollars worth of savings to the budget in a sensible and measured way, we'll continue to manage it in the same way if we're re-elected. The alternative is $350 billion worth of cuts and a new Dutton reckless government that has to find $500 billion, $600 billion, I should say -

 

SENATOR HUME: You’re making up numbers now.

 

SENATOR AYRES: To fund their dodgy, risky nuclear reactor program. That is what Australians are facing - a future of big cuts to public services. And we know what that means. Big cuts to Medicare.

 

HOST: Are you saying your budget doesn't have the cuts?

 

SENATOR AYRES: Well, we have done in the last two surplus budgets. We do.

 

HOST: No, but I mean in relation to the public service.

 

SENATOR AYRES: Yeah. Well, managing expenditure is a matter of priority and finding smart ways to reduce expenditure allows us to do smart things that in the interest of Australians, like the half a billion dollars that the Prime Minister and the Health Minister and the Assistant Health Minister delivered yesterday for women's health. That's what smart, effective budget management delivers, not cuts for Australians, which is what Peter Dutton would be.

 

SENATOR HUME: I mean, that implies that the women's health package is entirely dependent on cuts to the public service. I can't work out how you can weight the two.

 

SENATOR AYRES: It's about smart, diligent, principled approaches to public expenditure in the public interest.

 

SENATOR HUME: This looks like a budget deception to me.

 

SENATOR AYRES: We have, we have unlike the last government, which promised budget surpluses, brought out the mugs. I've still got one. One of the mugs that says back in black.

 

HOST: I haven't got a mug, but let's park that. And just, finally, I know you're both not in the lower house Question Time. But that was quite an extraordinary scene. Mark Dreyfus was on his feet. Jane Hume, your side, tried to move a motion to silence him. It ended up being defeated in the division. But he was talking about his own family's experience with Antisemitism. He repeated how he feels, which is that there's been a politicisation of Antisemitism. Is it a bit tone deaf to be silencing an Australian senior Jewish man who's talking about his own lived experience of Antisemitism?

 

SENATOR HUME: Yeah, I can't explain the procedural issues that went on in the House of Representatives. Obviously, we were in our own Question Time at that stage and so that's -

 

HOST: Sorry, I wasn't watching your one.

 

SENATOR HUME: That's all right. But nobody watches the Senate Question Time sadly. Look, I can't explain that. What I can say to you is, if these things meant so much to Mark Dreyfus, I can't understand why he didn't explain that to his Cabinet colleagues because there seems to have been a dropping of the ball. Such weak leadership in this fight against Antisemitism in Australia, backstage, when you're -

 

HOST: An Australian Jewish person speaking about their experience, I mean, you've got to let them speak, right?

 

SENATOR HUME: I can't understand. I don't understand what the process, what the procedural stuff is there. What I can say is those are the messages that his shadow Cabinet should have been hearing. Those are the messages that perhaps Penny Wong should have been listening to before she made the decisions about the government's position in the. In the UN, for instance, condemning Israel and calling for a cease fire without a full retreat from Hamas. This is the concern that we've had, that it is as essentially enabled and allowed Antisemitism to somehow not be sanctioned. That's the wrong word, but been allowed to run wild without the strong leadership that we need to put a lid on it. Because this is not the country I grew up in and certainly not the suburbs that I grew up in. And I know, you know, where I live in Melbourne, this is happening right around the corner from where I live. And it's very disturbing. I have neighbours that have said to me that if this continues that they will consider moving to Tel Aviv rather than staying in Melbourne where they feel that they'll be safer.

 

HOST: There is no doubt that Jewish people have told us repeatedly that they feel unsafe. But this particular issue. Just a brief answer from you.

 

SENATOR AYRES: Well, this is the danger.

 

HOST: I mean, the coalition's allowed to talk about their approach, right?

 

SENATOR AYRES: Yeah, this is, of course, but this is the danger with hyper partisanship and politicising this set of questions. And shutting down one of our leading, one of our leading Jewish Australians, the Attorney General in the Parliament from being able to contribute on these questions is, you know, we should all be walking the walk. We should all be talking the talk. When it comes to Antisemitism. And if the account that I heard is right, it is very regrettable.

 

HOST: Well, it's clear ultimately the Parliament didn't vote for that and he was able to speak. Thank you to both of you.

 

SENATOR AYRES: Thank you. Thanks, PK. Thanks, Jane