MURRAY JONES, HOST: The biggest issue with tariffs and people just don't seem to understand this is it is the people in the industries within the country that place the tariffs on that end actually paying these tariffs. So, I guess what I'm keen to talk about this morning is a little bit more about tariffs and doing things more, a little bit more here in Australia. He's the Assistant Minister for Trade, he joins me this morning. Senator Tim Ayres. Good morning, Tim. How are you today?

SENATOR TIM AYRES, ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR A FUTURE MADE IN AUSTRALIA AND TRADE: I'm good, Murray. Good to be talking to you and to your listeners.

HOST: Let's talk a little bit more about tariffs because to protect Australian industries and in some ways encourage that local content. You know, at first glance tariffs kind of do make a lot of sense. But I guess when you think these type of things through, it's not exactly the clever way to go, is it?

SENATOR AYRES: Well, it's in Australia's interest to have open markets and market access for our exporters. That's certainly the case. We're a middle-sized economy on the edge of the fastest growing region of the world in human history. Enormous potential markets. But it's certainly true that the global trading environment and the global strategic environment, particularly in our region, have become tougher for Australia. That's why the Albanese government has the Future Made in Australia agenda. You know, it is the largest pro-manufacturing, pro-Australian production package in Australian history. Because we have seen this emerging global environment - not just the recent developments - but an emerging trend where Australia's economic security and our national security can't be taken for granted. That's why we've got a massive package of incentives to rebuild Australian manufacturing, particularly in our regions and outer suburbs.

HOST: And look, you know, particularly when it comes to renewables, such an opportunity there and you know, unfortunately there just seems to be so much misinformation and disinformation, particularly when it comes to renewables. But we're on the cusp of such a great opportunity, particularly where we're placed geopolitically to be able to provide so much of the base that, so many countries are going to be using in the not too distant future, particularly for those renewables.

SENATOR AYRES: Well, there's hundreds of tonnes of structural steel in every wind tower, for example. That is an opportunity to use Australian structural steel. Plate steel manufactured in Australia. Bluescope in Port Kembla is in the process of investing in a brand new plate steel mill. If we use Australian plate steel, it means that we use Australian steel fabricators. If we build wind towers here, that means that all of the small and medium engineering enterprises who are engaged in the work of building the internal electronics and mechanisms for the wind towers have an opportunity to work on that here in Australia rather than it being produced offshore. That's why the Labor government has the Future Made in Australia program. And that's why Prime Minister Anthony Albanese announced last week a $500 million strategy to support Australian structural steel in the renewables rollout. So, much of this becomes for our opponents a sort of ideological obsession. I'm much more practical. We're going to have a common sense approach. We want the lowest cost possible power. And where there's an opportunity to build that with Australian structural steel using a local content strategy, the Albanese Labor government, that is the re-elected Labor government will deliver precisely that. Australian structural steel in Australian projects.

HOST: Righto. Well, on that note, let's take it a step further. The expertise and the opportunities that are there, why are we actually focusing those opportunities - and I am being a little bit tongue in cheek here - towards new coal and, you know, the burning of new coal and also to nuclear reactors.

SENATOR AYRES: Well, let's have a look at those two issues in turn. 97% of our trading partners have their own net zero objectives, which means that they will be demanding from Australian exporters zero emissions or lower emissions products—

HOST: Otherwise they won't deal with us, right?

SENATOR AYRES: That's right. So, for aluminium, for example, aluminium really has got two big inputs. It's got bauxite and it's got electricity. Rio Tinto, in particular, and Alcoa are both decarbonising their production processes not just because they're interested in the environment. I'm sure they are. But fundamentally because that's what their customers are demanding. It's a business decision for them. The question is not whether or not they are going to decarbonise their production processes. The question is, are they going to do that in Australia or are they going to do it in the Gulf or in China or in the United States? Now, I'm for Australia, that's who I support. Not, you know, like some of these other characters that are crapping on with some ideological argument. I'm for Australian production and that means coming to grips with what these companies need to do to build their new modern production processes. And for Rio Tinto, that's why they're invested in contracts with wind, in particular, and solar in Queensland. That's going to determine whether or not the Gladstone Boyne Island smelter continues to operate in Australia. That's why we delivered the $2 billion package to secure production here and that's why we're working with them getting the lowest cost energy. The second factor in all of this of course, is that wind and solar, backed up by storage and gas is the cheapest option in the long term for those firms. Coal is actually more expensive and the project of building more coal fired power stations, you can't find anybody who is prepared to use their own money to do it because it's a bad commercial idea. The last government tried really hard, couldn't get anybody to support that kind of proposition. It's just much cheaper, delivers much lower cost electricity to roll out renewables backed by gas and backed by storage. Thirdly on nuclear. This is such a bad idea for Australia, that the government, that the alternative government, the sort of Dutton show, is planning to spend $600 billion of public money because nobody in the private sector would be prepared to build a nuclear reactor. $600 billion of public money that will only produce about 4% of Australia's electricity. And they're going to have to deliver savage cuts to Medicare, to education, to all of the other areas of government expenditure and government services that Australians rely upon. In order to build nuclear power stations that are going to cost too much, push up power prices, deliver far too late and not produce enough electricity for Australia's needs.

HOST: Well, it certainly cost of living, health and education, certainly one of those things, but also affordable housing, health and particularly cost of living are really the key things that Australians seem to want at this time. You answered my question. Great to talk to you this morning. He's the Assistant Minister for Trade, Senator Tim Ayres. Have a wonderful day. Cheers.

SENATOR AYRES: Thanks Murray. Catch you next time.