MURRAY JONES, HOST: Well, keen to talk about our nearest neighbour, PNG, and of course those ongoing relationships, particularly when it comes to power and renewables, and of course the reliability gap, and you know, the talk about nuclear, and particularly when it comes to actually powering major industries. It's something we've got to look at fairly seriously, and are we too late when it comes to nuclear? So, some interesting stuff to talk about.
But of course he's a New South Welshman so he wants to talk about the football, surprise, surprise. He probably wants to rub it in, that's why he said, "Let's talk football instead".
Senator Tim Ayres, good morning. How are you today?
SENATOR TIM AYRES, ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR TRADE AND MANUFACTURING: Oh, it never occurred to me, Murray.
JONES: Of course not.
AYRES: I was listening to the weather report here in northern New South Wales, New South Wales is where I am. In Guyra this morning it was zero degrees and horizontal sleet. Your weather sounds a lot better.
JONES: Yeah.
AYRES: And I wasn't sure whether your listeners, you know, had the telly on last night or not, but when there's a good game of footy, it's like everybody should be talking about it ‑ everybody should be talking about it.
JONES: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've already copped it from a couple of Blues supporters this morning. But look, congratulations.
AYRES: I've got plenty of time. I've pulled over the road, you know, twenty minutes, no problem, happy to talk about State of Origin.
JONES: Mate, let's talk about blue weather down there to keep you nice and cold, 'cause you're actually between the Inverell and Warialda this morning so you're getting towards Moree, are you?
AYRES: Yeah, I'm heading towards Moree today. I have been up here in the New England, which is one of Australia's big renewable energy zones. We'll be producing eight megawatts of power, already exporting ‑ sorry, eight gigawatts of power from this region, already exporting 400 megawatts into Queensland, low-cost renewables from wind, solar and hydro, reliable energy in for Queensland households and business.
This region, it's all about, as they build that renewable energy capacity, making sure that we're grabbing hold of all of the manufacturing opportunities here for the Future Made in Australia agenda, rebuilding Australia's manufacturing capability.
All these things come together. We can't have a Future Made in Australia if we don't get the energy approach that's been set out by the Albanese Government and Chris Bowen a couple of days ago. We've got a very clear vision for the future. Low-cost base load renewable energy capability, getting the transmission lines right, the biggest industry policy offering for ‑ the biggest pro‑manufacturing policy offering in Australian history, therefore manufacturing in the regions and outer suburbs. These two things go together.
The alternate strategy, if you can call it that, is Peter Dutton's thought bubble about nuclear power, which will be only delivered in the 2040s at best, will cause a collapse in reliability and investment now and will push prices up in the short term and in the long‑term and mate, that's tough for households. Like, if your household electricity bill is going to climb and climb and climb because of unaffordable nuclear power. And what it will do, Murray, is push manufacturing jobs offshore and ruin our once‑in‑a‑lifetime chance for rebuilding Australian manufacturing.
JONES: Look, you know, there's no doubt, Tim, that it's become a bit of a politicised hot topic, and pushing the politicians aside, but you're probably going to like what I'm going to say though. At the end of the day the AEMO and the CSIRO have produced independent reports that have basically said that nuclear is going to cost more than renewables.
What I also believe personally is that, you know, you look at countries like Norway that are doing remarkably well when it comes to ‑ and it's often, you know, put up as the poster boy when it comes to nuclear, but they've got a 60‑year head start with the infrastructure already there. At the end of the day, I understand that the the infrastructure and of course the research, the ability of renewables are going to basically mean that nuclear, we can spend a hell of a lot of money, and there is going to be that reliability gap. But at the end of the day, I mean are you certain about the renewables? I guess that's the issue, are renewables able to actually fill that gap in the longer ‑ well, the shorter term?
AYRES: Yeah. Can I make two points about this? I think your first point's absolutely right. But what we actually need is to focus on not the ideology but the national interest. And we had an election in 2022, and after nine years of complete policy chaos, where because the Liberals and Nationals can't bring themselves to just accept the science and the engineering, they couldn't land a policy position, so we had 22 or 23 different energy policies, and that created uncertainty, because investors who are putting billions of dollars into our new energy system need to know that they've got a certain investment horizon to put ‑‑
JONES: Sure.
AYRES: ‑‑ private capital into these projects.
JONES: Yep.
AYRES: And if they see policy chaos, which is what they saw, then they don't invest.
JONES: No confidence.
AYRES: And we had four gigawatts of power go out, as all the coal‑fired power stations started shutting down under the Morrison Government, and only one gigawatt come back in. So, we have to turn that around, and the first step of turning that around is having an evidence‑based policy, having a clear investment framework, and that's what people voted for in 2022, that's what we're focused on implementing.
Now this nuclear thing is ‑ it is bad policy because it pushes prices up, but what it will mean, if Peter Dutton was to be elected as the Prime Minister ‑ I mean, hold that thought in your head for a moment if you can ‑ but if Peter Dutton was to be elected as the Prime Minister, then what would happen is disinvestment. Billions of dollars of capital would go to safer, more secure, more certain policy environments where if you're a big, you know, offshore wind or hydropower company, you will go somewhere else if the policy environment is not stable enough.
JONES: Yep, yep, sure.
AYRES: And that will lead to disinvestment. That means that we're just left with the assets that we have at the moment. And there has not been a single day over the course of the last year, over the last 365 days, not a single day where one of our coal‑fired power stations has not been closed because of a maintenance failure. They are getting old. You would only claim, as David Littleproud said the other day, we should sweat our coal assets for a bit longer. You would only say that if you'd never been to one of them.
I've been there, I've worked there. They are ten years over their life time, many of these operations. They are not able to be sustained without enormous expense. That's a recipe for worse reliability and high prices.
Like we've just as a country ‑ this is a message from Chris Bowen, people made a decision at the last election, we're getting on with it. There will be two choices at this election; one, lower prices, renewables, investment certainty link to the Future Made in Australia. The other choice, a mad push towards nuclear reactors whether you like them or not and policy chaos, disinvestment, uncertainty and less manufacturing jobs.
JONES: Yep. Look, you know, certainly even when it comes to transmission lines, because I guess that's one of the challenges that we need to tackle when it comes to renewables, but even as an investment, that's actually something solid moving forward. We know that that has to occur. Yeah, some interesting things that you said.
AYRES: Oh, and there are tough issues, Murray, with all of this, you know, working with farming communities to make sure that all of these developments happen in a cooperative kind of way, that we meet all of the environmental standards that are required, that we look after farming communities in the process.
JONES: Yep.
AYRES: Just like if you're putting a coal mine in, just like if you're building a supermarket in the suburbs, you've got to work with the neighbourhood. And we are committed to doing ‑ you know, all of the problems that people see are because the framework that was left to us by the last government didn't allow for that kind of cooperation.
We are getting on with it, we are working with farming communities in particular. We're going to get these things right, and what it's going to mean is lower prices, it's going to mean more reliability and it's going to mean more manufacturing jobs and investment.
I know that people are frustrated at the moment because of the conflict overseas and the energy price spikes, people are seeing ‑‑
JONES: Sure.
AYRES: ‑‑ some rises in electricity prices. We've held most of that back with the price caps on coal and gas, but people are still seeing some rises. So, I understand the frustration, but in the national interest for Australia, for manufacturing in Australia, we've got to get on with this and that's what the Government's going to do.
JONES: Okay, look, we're kind of out of time, but let's quickly talk about, you know, working in the neighbourhood.
AYRES: State of Origin again.
JONES: Yeah. Well, look, let's talk about football and Papua New Guinea, 'cause I know one of your focuses certainly as Assistant Minister for Manufacturing and Trade, working with PNG, one of our nearest neighbours, and particularly when it comes to football, so we can talk football, but a lot of opportunities there, even with the power grid and renewables as well.
AYRES: Oh, that's absolutely right. What Papua New Guinea needs as part of its development is access to low-cost reliable energy for its industrial development and for households. And it's a renewable energy superpower with all of the clean technology, with all of our vast resources of solar and wind, all of the minerals that we have below the ground, our mining industry's capacity to be able to engage with battery technology, electric vehicles, clean technology. We have got a lot to offer in this partnership with Papua New Guinea.
So, it is absolutely essential for Papua New Guinea's development, but also for the security and self‑reliance and resilience of our region that we invest in this relationship in terms of time. Me and a senior group of ministers were there just a few weeks ago. In terms of cultural and people‑to‑people exchange, particularly through sport. And also, all of the things that we're working with the Government of PNG to do in a decent kind of way.
Rugby League's a big part of that, Murray.
JONES: Sure.
AYRES: A big part of that. They love Rugby League in Papua New Guinea. It's in every single community, whether you're in Moresby or in one of the Highland villages. But having a Papua New Guinea team in the National Rugby League would be a fantastic thing, Australians will welcome it. It will bring a lot of talent and excitement into the National Rugby League. So even if you missed the game last night, Murray, a Papua New Guinean team in the National Rugby League, I think every Queenslander, every New South Wales person would welcome it so much.
JONES: Yep.
AYRES: It would be great for North Queensland, great for your listening area ‑‑
JONES: Yep.
AYRES: ‑‑ having a team going backwards and forwards, the Cowboys and the Broncos and Dolphins would all really benefit from it. It's a great initiative, but it's there because we want to deepen that relationship and support the development of Papua New Guinea in their interest and in Australia's national interest.
JONES: Okay. And you didn't even mention the Rabbitohs. But great to talk to you this morning, Tim Ayres.
AYRES: Oh, yeah. Well, we ‑ I'll come back on for another half an hour in a minute if you like and talk about the Rabbitohs.
JONES: You better get to Moree.
AYRES: I'd better, I'd better.
JONES: He's the Assistant Minister for Manufacturing and Trade, Tim Ayres. Thanks so much for your time this morning, cheers.
ENDS.
