CHRIS O’KEEFE, HOST: Now, you know that I'm hot to trot on building stuff in Australia. I think we should be manufacturing as much as we can in this country. People try to say that it's all pie in the sky and I'm kidding myself, the world's moved on, but I just don't think that's good enough, and I think that sort of perspective is lazy. I think it's important that Australia, for our national interest, makes things here. And to their credit, the Albanese government is trying to address this, but not quite how Australians probably think they would be. So, they've got this Bill called a Future Made in Australia, and it's all about building solar panels and wind farm turbines and some other green technologies and the like. Now, it's twenty billion dollars, twenty odd billion dollars over ten years that’s going to be invested to make it happen. Now, it's our money, and that money will go out the door as soon as the Bill passes the Senate. And that is where the Bill is at now. Senator Tim Ayres is the Assistant Minister for a Future Made in Australia. He’s on the line for us. Senator, G'day. 

SENATOR TIM AYRES: G'day. Before we start, Chris, I just want to say happy birthday to Shirley, too. 

CHRIS O’KEEFE: She's all right. 

SENATOR AYRES: Isn't that good?  

CHRIS O’KEEFE: Hey, all right, let's talk about a Future Made in Australia. Why is it just focused largely on green technologies? 

SENATOR AYRES: It’s not, Chris. That's the point here. It's focused in two precise areas, two national interests. As you said, it's not just a good thing for there to be more manufacturing. You’re in radio, you have not been one of the people who've been talking Australian manufacturing down. You've been talking Australian manufacturing up for your whole media career. This is about two areas. One area is about national security and economic resilience. The second area is about making sure that we're going to our comparative advantage, and that is in some of these energy areas. Let me give you an example. All the minerals that the world needs for what is the biggest industrial transformation since the industrial revolution – 97% of our trading partners need lithium, cobalt, manganese – all of these critical minerals, Australia has not just some of them in vast quantities, but all of them. We are one of the world's largest exporters of iron ore. What we don't do, Chris, is value-add here in Australia. We export raw lithium ore overseas. We don't export processed lithium. And that means in the lithium area, we capture about half a percent of the value chain here in Australia. It's time for Australia to capture our comparative advantage in these areas, and it is in our national interest, to do it. And what it will do is create good new jobs in the regions and outer suburbs. That's what this is all about. Now, the second thing that you said that I just want to take you up on is that money starts going out the door when the Bill's passed. That is not correct. What the Bill does, and the Future Made in Australia package does, is mean that companies that manufacture here in Australia will get a tax credit when they manufacture. Not the old approach of giving companies money in the hope that in the future they will manufacture here. In terms of hydrogen, for example, green hydrogen companies will get a tax credit on the very day, per kilo, for the amount that they manufacture. That's why this is a no regrets measure, absolutely in the national interest way of rebuilding Australian manufacturing. 

CHRIS O’KEEFE: The Net Zero transformation is one of the streams though, no? 

SENATOR AYRES: Yeah, it's absolutely part of that comparative advantage area. But what? It's green metals. It's hydrogen. It’s green iron. 

CHRIS O’KEEFE: I'll just read it for you. I'm sure you know, giving you’re the Assistant Minister, the Bill proposes to legislate the National Interest Framework, and it's got two streams: Net Zero transformation, and economic resilience and security. 

SENATOR AYRES. That’s right. Economic resilience and security, and the Net Zero transformation. 

CHRIS O’KEEFE: Hang on, hang on, hang on. My turn now. You ready? Tax credits for companies in net zero transformation. What kind of companies are we talking about? 

SENATOR AYRES: Well, if we secure funding and investment from the steel industry into producing green iron pellets in Western Australia, for example. Let's just take that one example. If we can use our vast solar resources to produce hydrogen to process iron ore into green iron pellets, that is of enormous value for Australia, but also enormous value to our steelmaking partners in Japan and Korea, Europe and the United States. It means we're exporting a higher value product, creating jobs and investment here in Australia, and also, for our partners, a very significant step out. 

CHRIS O’KEEFE: What about people who want to manufacture solar panels? 

SENATOR AYRES: Right now, 90% of the world's solar panels are made in China. In one country. That is an energy security issue. 

CHRIS O’KEEFE: I'm just asking, will tax credits be given to Australian companies that want to make solar panels here? 

SENATOR AYRES: Absolutely. And that's why, for example, at the Liddell Power Station, there is a commitment from a next generation Australian solar manufacturing company that will employ more people at Liddell than have been employed in living memory in the coal-fired power station that is slated for closure very shortly. 

CHRIS O’KEEFE: Why can't we just do it? Why can't we just do it across the board? What about people who want to make buses? Can they apply for these tax credits? 

SENATOR AYRES: Certainly, this is focused in these two areas. What it will lead to is enormous spin off benefits, like the auto industry before Joe Hockey and Tony Abbott kicked it out of the country. It’ll have enormous spin off benefit for the rest of manufacturing. 

CHRIS O’KEEFE: You are picking a winner when it comes to green technology and green manufacturing over and above traditional manufacturing. 

SENATOR AYRES: Chris, if we want a future for Australia that's in manufacturing, the two streams are critical for our future prosperity and our future national security. 97% of our trading partners, 97%, not just some, 97% have got their own net zero objectives. That means there's great risks and great opportunities for Australia. If we sit on our hands and do nothing, then the train will leave the station, and it only leaves the station once for Australia. This is a once in a generation chance. 

CHRIS O’KEEFE: Sure. It’d be nice to make a few trains here and give them tax credits. What you can do is do it for everybody. You don't have to have to do it- I've run out of time. But you can- I reckon there'd be manufacturing businesses that you used to represent at the AMWU that’d be thinking, well, hang on a second, we've been busting our backsides for this entire time when nobody wanted to give us a brass razoo, and now Future Made in Australia looks good, $22.7 billion over ten years in tax credits, and we can't apply. 

SENATOR AYRES: That's why the Albanese government has led the National Rail Manufacturing Strategy, and every state and territory is committed to making trains onshore here in Australia. There's not just one lever here, Chris, but in these areas, if we want to secure the world's best manufacturers and the global investment community investing in Australia, we can either be at the top table with incentives to drive investment here, or we can just let this opportunity go by. And if we let it go by, which is what Peter Dutton and the Greens party want to do, we will miss it for a generation. Australia will be poorer, there will be less jobs, less productive, and we end up in an economic cul-de-sac. This is our once in a generation chance to reindustrialise the outer suburbs and the regions in particular of our economy. I'm absolutely buggered to understand how Peter Dutton and the Liberals and the Greens political party have teamed up in the Senate to try and defeat Australian manufacturing and the Australian interest. They're talking Australia down. They've done it- they do it day in and day out, and it's about time they got on team Australia. 

CHRIS O’KEEFE: Senator Tim Ayres, appreciate you coming on. 

SENATOR AYRES: Good on you, Chris. 

ENDS.